docbible.net

The Bible and the Book of Mormon

  • Increase font size
  • Default font size
  • Decrease font size

THE TRINITY

E-mail Print PDF
User Rating: / 0
PoorBest 

(C) Copyright by Massimo Franceschini all rights reserved

Before to start I suggest you to read "The Trinity according to"

One of the most basic beliefs of the Christian community is the idea of the Trinity. To support their idea they point to such verses of scripture as: Matthew 11:27; John 1:1; 8:38; 10:38; 1 Corinthians 2:10; John 14:16,26 ; 17:3; Galatians 4:6; John 15:26; 16:7; Mark 12:1-12; John1:1,14 2 Corinthians 4:4; Hebrew 1:3. They then ask the question, "Why don't Mormons believe in the Trinity? Isn't the Trinity Biblical?" What is interesting is that none of these scriptures, individually or together, express a theology of the Trinity. (see, e.g. I John 5:7-8 and John 1:1 John 17:21-22).

For example, in John 1:1 there is mention of the Father and Jesus, but the Holy Ghost is not mentioned there. The same can be said for John 17:21-22. Regarding 1 John 5:7-8 there is a controversy among Biblical scholars concerning verse seven, which is the basis for their idea of the Trinity. What makes this verse so controversial is that it is missing in all the oldest manuscripts.

(If you want to know more about this controversy, read The Johannine comma ) But even if it is a controversial one, what makes this discussion more interesting is that we have dozen of other scriptures which show just opposite.

The Catholic church uses the phrase "mystery of the faith" to explain the doctrine of the trinity when people ask how such a thing is possible. It was Jesus who declared, "You will know the truth and the truth will set you free." If that is true, then how it is possible to think that the truth is a "mystery"? It would seem that common sense already disqualifies this strange reasoning.

But let's look at the "true" truth. In John 17:21-22 we read, "That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one."

This verse seems to confirm the idea that the Father and the Son are both the same person. But is this really what Jesus said? This is one of those cases in which a phrase has been taken out of context. To better understand the real meaning of John 17:3, let's take a closer look at the whole chapter. In verse 3 we read, "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."

In this declaration we learn two things. First, Jesus tells us that the Father is the ONLY TRUE GOD. But how can this be if Jesus is God Himself? The second thing we learn that the "only true God" sent Jesus Christ. That doesn't sound like God and Jesus Christ are the same being.

Let's think about this a little closer. To have a son, you have to have a father. That means a father needs to exist before there can be a son. And the only way you can be called a father is if you beget a child. If you beget a male child, then you have a son. If this isn't correct, then those titles have no meaning. Someone could say, "But John 1:1 says that the Word was in the beginning and he was with God." That is true but that scripture is referring to the beginning of the creation of the earth, not the beginning of God. Please  read this Revelation 3:14 and you will see that Jesus was the beginning of........

Continuing, we read in John 17:5-6, "And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word."

In this scripture we see Jesus talking to His Father, asking the father to give the glory which "I had with thee before the world was." Is Jesus talking to Himself here? If we believe that the Father and the Son are the same being, that's what we would have to conclude. But Jesus tells His Father that He has "manifested thy [the Father's] name unto the" people. But if Jesus is the Father, then the name which Jesus is telling the people to glorify is his own name. But that's not what Jesus is saying.

In verse 11 it says, "And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are." Here we have the first clue what Jesus meant in verse 11. It is clear here that Jesus is speaking about unity in purpose. Jesus is saying that all men should become one just like the Father and Son are one. According to the Protestant explanation of the trinity, we should all become one person with God.

However, the same chapter resolves this question. In verses 21-22 we read, "That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one."

In this verse it is clear that Jesus is referring to a unity of purpose. If that isn't the case then Jesus is saying that everybody should be part of the Trinity, in which case the Trinity would then become the Billions. This reasoning is absurd. There is no way to make a comparison between us and the Trinity using the definition of "one" as Jesus defines it in this verse.

Verse 26 express all those concepts. "And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them." If we take this literally, we would have to say that Jesus is part of us and that we are part of him, IN THE SAME WAY that the Father is in Him and He is in the Father. And if that's the case, then we all become part of the Trinity.

Now, let's look at some scriptures that were given both before Jesus was born and after He was resurrected, that shows His relationship the Father.

Isaiah 48:12-16, "Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last. Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand hath spanned the heavens: when I call unto them, they stand up together. All ye, assemble yourselves, and hear; which among them hath declared these things? The LORD hath loved him: he will do his pleasure on Babylon, and his arm shall be on the Chaldeans. I, even I, have spoken; yea, I have called him: I have brought him, and he shall make his way prosperous. Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me."

Here we see that the God of Israel is known as "the first" and "the last." Not only that, but the God of Israel "laid the foundation of the earth." Christians everywhere recognizes this as being Jesus Christ (see Hebrew 1:2-13 and John 1:1-3). That means Jesus Christ is the God of Israel, who was known to them by the name of Jehovah. Therefore it is clear that Jehovah and Jesus Christ are the same person. (for more information about this read "The Great Jehovah.")

Next, let's take a closer look at verse 16: "Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me." Here we read that Jehovah was sent by "the Lord God, and his Spirit." We have three different people here, and two of them sent the third one.

Let's analyze Hebrew 1:2-13: "Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high: Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? And again, when he bringeth in the first begotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment; And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail. But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?"

There are several very important quotations here: "and the express image of his person," "sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:" "Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee?" "And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?" All of these show a difference or distinction being made between the Father and the Son.

Hebrew 1:1-2, "God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds." Here we clearly read that the Son, not the Father, "made the worlds." Futhermore, the Father appointed His Son to be the "heir of all things." This can only be true if Jesus and His Father are two different beings.

Another point I'd like to make is they had difference wills. Jesus always did the will of His Father. He declared:" I am here to accomplish not my will but the will of My Father." But in Gethsemane, he asked if it were possible to do something different than what the Father wanted.

In Philippians 2:6-9 we read, "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name." If the Father and the Son are the same being, how could this Trinitarian God "highly exalt" Himself and give Himself a name "above every name" only after He (God) humbled "himself and became obedient unto death?"

Jesus further taught that every sin against Him would have been forgiven but the sin against the Holy Ghost couldn't be forgiven. This clearly shows that Jesus and the Holy Ghost are not the same being, because it is only possible to commit an unpardonable sin against just one of them.

In John 16:7-15 we read, "Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me; Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged. I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you."

There are several things we learn from this. If Jesus didn't go away, the comforter wouldn't be able to come. More than that, Jesus said that after he had departed, he, Jesus, will SEND the Holy Ghost. Just as the Father and the Holy Ghost sent the Son, so the Son sent the Holy Ghost. Also notice Jesus said, "I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit, when he, the Spirit of truth (Holy Ghost) is come he will guide you into all truth." Again we see that Jesus had to leave so that the disciples could learn things from the Holy Ghost, which not only illustrates that Jesus and the Holy Ghost are two different beings, but that they have two different functions to perform concerning salvation.

Speaking about Stephen as he was being stoned to death, in Acts 7:55 we read, "But he [Stephen], being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up steadfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God." This was foretold in Matthew 22:44 where it states, "The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool." There are two lords spoken of here, but one of them is Lord over the other because one lord refers to the other one as "MY Lord." Moreover, one sits on the right hand side of the other.

After the resurrection, we read in John 20:17, "Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God." In very clear language Jesus states that the Father is not only OUR God but He is also Jesus' God. In other words, we have a heavenly Father and so does Jesus. We have a God who lives in heaven to whom we owe respect and honor and so does Jesus. The same being whom we worship as God, is the same being Jesus worships as God.

Matthew 27:46, "And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? First of all, how it is possible to forsake oneself? But more importantly, the scriptures once again affirm that Jesus has a God whom He worships, to whom He prays and for whom He obeys, just as we do.

In Matthew 24:36 Jesus declares, "But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only." Here Jesus is talking about His second coming, yet he acknowledges that ONLY the Father knows when that will happen. Therefore, it is clear that the Father has knowledge that the Son doesn't have.

John 5:19-20, "Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel." The Son did the will of His Father. More than that, the Father showed the Son "all things that himself doeth." This makes no sense if the Father and the Son are the same being. It only makes sense if they are two separate and distinct beings, with one being greater than the other

Consider the following scriptures: Hebrew 2:8, "Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him." But now we see not yet all things put under him. this phrase is very clear and here we are after his resurrection.

Ephesians 1:20, "Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places." It is not saying that they became one it is saying that he was on the right side.

Revelation 5:1-7, "And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals. And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof? And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon. And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.

And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of

David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof. And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne."

John 14:28, "Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I." John 14:31, "But that the world may know that I love the Father; and as the Father gave me commandment, even so I do. Arise, let us go hence." John 15:10, "If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

John 17:21,22, "That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one."

John 7:16-18, "Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me. If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself. He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him." John 15:15, "Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you." John 8:38, "I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.

John 12:49-50, "For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak." John 5:30, "I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me." John 5:22, "For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son." Hebrew 2:8, "Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him." In this verse we see that not all things have been put under him. Think about that!

It was contrary to the Law for ONE man to bear witness of  himself. Christ observed the Law as did the Father, thus signifying the separateness of their identity "And the Father Himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me." John 5:37

Also it is written "and this is the eternal life, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent." John 17:3 The Lord never intended that His nature should remain a "Blessed mistery." It is impossible ever to know an INCOMPREHENSIBLE God. Yet many creeds of today speak of them, Father, Jesus and the Holy Ghost as incomprehensible and uncreate. How trey can have life eternal?

John 20:17, "Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God." (The Father was still is God!) John 16:7-15, "Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me; Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged. I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you."

Ephesians 1:17, "That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him." 1 Corinthians 8:6, "But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him." 1 Timothy 2:5, "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus."

Think about this. According to the Trinitarian creeds of Christianity, the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are supposed to be one, because one verse of scripture states they are. But, as we have just seen, the entire Bible describes the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, not as being "three in one" but as being different in many ways.

However, Christianity would rather believe in a mysterious trinity than believe in the words of the Bible. They claim that God is beyond our ability to understand and comprehend because He is so different from us. But even this idea is refuted in the Bible. Nowhere does it say that God is unknowable, yet most Christians who claim to accept every word in the Bible as coming from God, and who insist that it is God's complete word, rely on unscriptural ideas to support their beliefs.

The Bible states that men like Moses, Isaiah, Stephen, John, Paul and many others have SEEN God. They have SEEN Him sitting one the right hand of God. They have SEEN Him standing before them. They have SEEN Him sitting on a throne. They have described what He looks like. With numerous eyewitness accounts of God, written in the infallible, complete word of God - the Bible - Christians still want us to believe that the Trinity is a mystery we cannot comprehend.

I suggest to read Hebrew 7:28

Revelation 3:14 this is a MUST READ.

Colossians 1:15 "firstborn of every creature" and this is clearly referring to the pre-existence because Jesus was born in the meridian of time

Hebrews 2:11

John 17:1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:

Notice the Greek "lifting up" is eparaj (eparas), which is the first aorist active participle of epairô. Jesus is turning his eyes upward to heaven where his Father dwells. It is an entirely different physical location. In every instance of Jesus and his relationship with His Father, his Father is in heaven, a different physical location than Jesus. This is pointed out powerfully at Jesus’ baptism:

The relationship of the Father and Son is also demonstrated in the Mount of Transfiguration. Mark 9:7 And there was a cloud that overshadowed them: and a voice came out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.

The voice came from a different location than where Jesus was.

And they are right! THEIR idea of the trinity is incomprehensible.

The early Christian leaders and writers condemned the "Trinity" theory as anti-Christ and a doictrine of the devil.

Hippolytus, a disciplke of Irenaeus wrote:

"If, again, he alleges his own word when he (Noetus) attends to the fact, and understands that he did not say,:"Iand the father am one, but ARE one" For the word re (esmen) is not said of one person, but it refers to two person and one power, He has himself made this clear, when he spoke to the father concerning the disciples, "The glory which thou gavest me I have given them: that they may be made perfect in one; that the world may know that Thou hast sent me." What have the Noetians to say to these things? Are all one body in respect to substance, or is it that we become one in the power and disposition of unity of mind?.... A man, therefore, even though he will it not, is compelled to acknowledge God the Father Almighty, and Christ Jesus the Son of God, who, being God, became man, to whom also the Father made all things subject, himself excepted, and the Holy Spirit; and that these therefore, are three."

Origen, Christian scholar, apologist and martyr, wrote:"

"Those who entertain false notions about Christ under pretense of doing him honour are not to be thought of as "for" Him: such are they who confuse the conception of father and Son who suppose that the Father and Son are one in individuale being and only admit distinctions of function in the identical subject. The Son is inferior in relation to the father, since He touches only things endowed with reason, for He is subordinate to the Father. The Holy Spirit is still lower in degree, pertaining only to the saints. So then the power of the father is superior to the Son and the Holy Ghost while the Son's power is greater than the Holy Spirit, and again the power of the Holy Spiriti excels all other holy things.

Origen wrote also:

"And they are two separate persons, but one in unity and concord of mind and in identity of will; so that he who has seen the Son, "radiance of the glory" and "expressions of the being" of God, has seen God in Him who is the image of God."

Tertullian another great Christian scholar and defender of the faith wrote:

"In various ways has the devil rivalled and resisted the truth. Sometimes his aim has been to destroy the truth by defending it. He mantains that there is only one Lord, the  Almighty Creator of the world, in order that out of this doctrine of the unity he may fabricate a heresy. He says that the Father Himself came down into the virgin, was Himself born of her, Himself suffered, indeed, was Himself Jesus Christ. He himself, they say, made Himself a son to Himself. Now a Father makes a son, and a Son makes a Father; and they who thus become so related to themselves, that the father can make Himself a Son to Himself, and the Son render Himself a Father to Himself.....now all this must be the device of the devil. They more readily suppose that the Father acted in the Son's name, than that the Son acted in the father's, although the Lord says Himself:" I am come in my father's name" and even to the Father He declares:"I have manifested Thy name unto these men;" Whilst the scriptures likewise says:" Blessed is He that cometh in the name of the Lord," That is to say, the Son in the father's name. Now, observe, my assertion is that the Father is one, and the Son is one, and the Holy Spirit is one, and they are distinct from Each other.

I like this joke:

Jesus said, Whom do men say that I am?

And his disciples answered and said, Some say you are John the Baptist returned from the dead;

others say Elias, or other of the old prophets. And Jesus answered and said, But whom do you say that I am?

Peter answered and said, "Thou art the Logos, existing in the Father as His rationality and then, by

an act of His will, being generated, in consideration of the various functions by which God is related to his creation, but only on the fact that Scripture speaks of a Father, and a Son, and a Holy Spirit, each member of the Trinity being coequal with every other member, and each acting inseparably with and interpenetrating every other member, with only an economic subordination within God, but causing no division which would make the substance no longer simple."

And Jesus answering, said, "What?"

Last Updated on Monday, 17 May 2010 10:41  

site info

Members : 13077
Content : 381
Web Links : 6
Content View Hits : 758189

Who is online

We have 28 guests online

Adam's progenitors

Massimo Franceschini Adam's progenitors?

Secret paradise

Massimo Franceschini Secret Paradise

Hidden truths in the Bible. Volume 1

Hidden truths in the Bible. Volume 1