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Concerned Christians

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There is a group of people who declares themselves "concerned" regarding the lds church.

Their purpose is to "witness to Mormons" in LOVE to those lost in Mormonism.

I met them 2 years ago at the Mesa Temple and I had an opportunity to "taste" their LOVE. They usually, when there is an important event at the Mesa Temple are there. They don't preach for their opinions of beliefs, they don't preach to everybody like Jesus taught, but they teach only against the lds church and only for lds people. They are a very special task force, trained, not very well, but trained for this special purpose.

Usually they condemn the lds persons because they strive to be perfect, since they say the Bible teaches that no one can't be perfect (Be perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect maybe it is not in their Bible and according to them was not a Jesus' teaching or statement) and many other things that they proclaim are not taught in the Bible. Before to go ahead I want to give you a piece of the love that personally I had received from them and after we will compare what they publish in "witness to Mormons" by my Bible, the king James version, because I have the feeling that they are using an obsolete Bible or at least a different one, or maybe a different point of view to see the reality.

I met one of them like I wrote above two years ago at the Mesa temple, they are trying to discuss with people and even though I think that it is not appropriate to disturb special event to any other organization they can do that, maybe this is not showing respect and the love that they declare, in fact on my opinion they would not be happy if someone would go at the door of their church to stop their members saying many thing, unkind, unpolite and so on, but probably they have a different way to define love and respect. Their attitude in our discussion was just confrontation and the best word about my beliefs was lies, fraud, fairy tales and so on. One of them , Mike Burns signed my guestbook at the very beginning on old my guest book you could find this:" 04/Nov/1998:01:50:30

Nice Job on the web page! I can see you have put some time into it.
However, I do not agree with many of the points you tried to make in
establishing the validity of the Book of Mormon. To date there is no
reputable archeologist that has found and of the cities, money, armor,
or anything that is mentioned in the BOM? Why is that? Perhaps you
would like to stop by my web page and we can discuss some of the items
that you present on your web page.

In reality this guy here didn't read one verse of my page. One here ago I sent them my page, inviting to read it and give me a sincere answer, do you know what happened, somebody of them applied their webpage with my e mail to a bunch of search engines and I received a bunch of spam all referring to their page.  A friend of mine few month ago wrote them to take a look at my page and give him an opinion and one of them said that they don't have the time to read this, A person close to me wrote this to them

Do you have an answer, I mean biblical answer to this?
http://www.bibleman.net/The_Book_of_Mormon.htm
http://www.bibleman.net/The_Prayer.htm
http://www.bibleman.net/The_Holy_Ghost.htm
http://www.bibleman.net/The_Revelation.htm
Thanks, and btw would you please put my links and the answer on
your
board? I am sure that you should feel ok about this.

Craig V. wrote back

Thanks for the email.  I looked at the site, and have actually spent some
time there before.  One, I don't think providing you point by point answers
would convince you to leave the LDS church.  Two, obviously there isn't the
time or need.  Go to any good Christian bookstore or even the internet and
you will find your answers.  Time has shown me that huge volumes of material
can be written in defense of any subject.  For an example of this go to
www.answering-islam.com That site "proves" to thousands of Muslims that
visit there weekly that Islam is true.  We don't have time for that either
If you have specific questions about Christianity, or specific questions
about why Mormonism is not true we would be glad to answer them. as for
getting your sites listed on Jim's website, I am his buddy and I can't get
him to put my stuff on there, so good luck!!

Sincerely,

Craig V.

James r. S. wrote

I'm not sure I have the patience for this.  Do you?
JIm

GREAT THIS IS JUST IN ACCORD TO

OUR STATEMENT OF FAITH

Concerned Christians is a non-profit organization of Christians who have a DESIRE to reach out in love to the Mormon community with the truth of God's Word, the Holy Bible.

My friend just asked Biblical questions about the lds church to them and their answer not only disprove their statement of faith but saying"obviously there isn't the time or need.  GO to any good Christian bookstore or even the INTERNET and
you will find your answers." what is their presence on internet just a joke?

My friend wrote again

It seems to me that more than time you don't have ANSWERS, but that
is ok, I was just sure about that, otherwise you shouldn't be CONCERNED.

the answer of Craig is very brilliant and clear

I'm not sure what you are saying.  At any rate, we can't refute every point
of every religion in the world.  If you have specifics we can provide
information on those subjects.
Craig

Practically Craig is saying that his web page is useless and also is mentioning every religion, but these were specific question about the lds church and his doctrine and their purpose is

OUR PURPOSE

Our sincere intent is to reach out to the Mormon people in a loving manner and to be in service to the Christian community by educating them about the deception involving Mormonism and to equip them for service

We have trained individuals to counsel, to help those leaving the Mormon church to find a Christian church that will give them a firm foundation in Christ and His Word

but Craig wrote to my friend this:"One, I don't think providing you point by point answers
would convince you to leave the LDS church.  Two, obviously there isn't the
time or need. "

maybe he was not well trained and surely he didn't care too much in this occasion, probably he is not able to think positive when he wrote that

My friend didn't give up and wrote again

Well if I am correct you promise to compare biblical truth with the lds
church,  I sent to you a link www.bibleman.net , this guy has this page on
internet regarding a biblical study in 4 parts and maintain that no one was
able to refute it. Are you able to do it?
It shouldn't be a big deal for professional people like you guys,
professional for lds.

Craig wrote back trying to be cunning, instead to answer questions that he could answer was trying just to bring the conversation in another field, giving the proof that he had no time to discuss the questions given to him, but a lot of time to the questions he would like to talk, IS THIS HONEST? Is this correct?

this is the answer from the trained and specialist in lds topic:"

I answered you twice.  Below is my last email.
I'm not sure what you are saying.  At any rate, we can't refute every point of every religion in the world.  If you have specifics we can provide
information on those subjects.

We can't spend an eternity spending time point by point on why the
Unification Church (moonies) are wrong and why the Nation of Islam is
wrong,
any more than we can spend time refuting why Snow White is not a
historical fact

I don't want to continue on this subject.  If you would like to address a
specific issue, such as the book of Abraham, or  Does Mormonism require
polygamy for exaltation?, or do men become gods? Then we have the basis
for discussion.  I believe any of these topics would be sufficient.
So let's talk about the many issues that would indicate Mormonism is
false
How about we start with a simple question?  Why are there no
crosses on Mormon wards?

CV

See this guy thinks to be smart avoiding clear questions and making his owns, but clearly the reader can see his faults and fear to face the topic from the Bible point of view. Since they don't want to face this point of view we will do their job. I went in a Christian bookstore and I bought their booklet "Witness to Mormons" and we will go by the Bible page by page and we will see what the Bible really says about the topics they mention. Remember every word should be confirmed by two or three witness, this is a Bible's rule not mine. read "the law of two or three witnesses"

In their opening "understanding your Mormon friend" page 2 they declare regarding Mormons"they have been taught that the Book of Mormon is the fullness of the Gospel, yet it doesn't contain most well know doctrines of the Lds church.

They speak and they don't know what are they talking about.

The main purpose and mission of the Book of Mormon is well defined and declared from its title page

-Which is to show unto the remnant of the House of Israel what great things the Lord hath done for their fathers; and that they may know the covenants of the Lord, that they are not cast off forever-- And also to the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that JESUS is the CHRIST, the ETERNAL GOD

For this reason we have the book "Doctrine and Covenants" because is there that God gave us the DOCTRINE.

Page 3 it is written" in drawing people to the Mormon church they are leading them away from Jesus. For Jesus is the way, not a church........

It seems like those guys are forgetting that even the Protestants have churches, not only meaning buildings but even organizations and the Bible clearly define that organization after the death of Jesus in

Ephesians 4:11
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

Ephesians 4:12
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

Ephesians 4:13
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ:

so they are scoring in their own basket.

Sandra Tanner another person loving the lds people wrote page 4 and 5 with many topics in which she declare that the Bible is against lds doctrine.

1) pre-existence to support his idea she quotes 2 verses to support that only Jesus pre -existed (and lds agree on this) and just one against the man pre-existence 1 Corinthians 15:46

let's see how many support the lds doctrine

please read this before to go ahead "Two creation account"

Numbers 16:22
22 And they fell upon their faces, and said, O God, the God of the spirits of all flesh,

obviously man is FLESH

Job 38:4
4 ¶ Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth?

Job 38:7
7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Job 38:21
21 Knowest thou [it], because thou wast then born or [because] the number of thy days [is] great.

Proverbs 8:22
22 ¶ The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.
Proverbs 8:23
23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

Proverbs 8:24
24 When [there were] no depths, I was brought forth; when [there were] no fountains abounding with water.

Proverbs 8:25
25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:

Proverbs 8:26
26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.

Proverbs 8:27
27 When he prepared the heavens, I [was] there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:

Proverbs 8:28
28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:

Proverbs 8:29
29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:

Proverbs 8:30
30 Then I was by him, [as] one brought up [with him]: and I was daily [his] delight, rejoicing always before him;

Ecclesiastes 12:7
7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.


Jeremiah 1:4
4 ¶ Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

Jeremiah 1:5
5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, [and] I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Deuteronomy 32:7
7 ¶ Remember the days of old, consider the years of many generations: ask thy father, and he will shew thee; thy elders, and they will tell thee.

Deuteronomy 32:8
8 When the most High divided to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the people according to the number of the children of Israel.

s blind from [his] birth.

John 9:2
2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?

John 9:3
3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.

acts 17:28-29 Ephesians 1:4-5

there are more but those are enough are surely more than 2 or 3 the reference given by Sandra it has anything to do in this context any way is just one so it wouldn't be enough either.

2) Fall

lds teach it brought mortality and physical death not fallen nature believe Adam was given two conflicting commandments and was supposed to fall.

Bible : God tempts no one (James 1:13-14. Man is basically sinful Romans 8:5-8 1 Corinthians 2:14

that fall was foresaw it is very easy to prove by the Bible

1 Peter 1:20
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world,
Revelation 13:8
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Keep on mind that Jesus came to redeem and save the world, if He was foreordained before the foundation of the world, clearly God knew about the fall, God knows always the end from the very beginning so..........

Interesting at this point to disprove the verse given by Sandra

Genesis 22:1
1 ¶ AND it came to pass after these things, that God did TEMPT Abraham

and man is  basically sinful after the fall, before of the fall Adam and Eve didn't have the knowledge of good and evil so they couldn't sin but just transgress an order like Paul explained in

1 Timothy 2:14
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

1 Timothy 2:15
15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

Eve was deceived from a mature entity Lucifer without the knowledge of good and evil. God knew everything from the beginning if He wanted to avoid this He could put an angel to protect the tree of knowledge like He did about the tree of life , but He didn't surely for His own purposes, remember that before to give the command don't eat He command them

Genesis 1:28
28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth,

5)atonement - salvation by grace

lds believe Christ's death brought release from the grave and universal resurrection. Salvation by grace is universal resurrection beyond this man must earn his place in heaven.

Bible Salvation is not universal but based on belief of each individual (Romans 1:16 heb 9:28 Ephesians 2:8-9

http://www.bibleman.net/What_is_the_Grace.htm

http://www.bibleman.net/Faith_and_Works.htm

http://www.bibleman.net/Resurrection.htm

they should be enough but I'd like to remark that if salvation is really based just on beliefs of each individual, and it is enough to confess Jesus like Savior, well all the Christians will be saved by this simple thing, I profess and confess Jesus as my Savior every day, and so does the Catholic, Adventist and so on.

9) True church

Lds Only Mormon church is true

Bible as born again Christian we are part of God's church ( 1 Corinthians 12:12-14 Matthew 18:19-20 Matthew 16:18

I don't understand this point here, clearly every Christian church believes to be the true one the problem with the Protestants is that we don't know among the hundreds of different denomination which one is the right one, the Bible clearly says that there is just one faith and one baptism. Maybe Calvinists and Lutheran or Baptists are the same, why they don't join then?

10) Authority - Priesthood.

lds believe only lds have authority to baptize, ordain etc. they have two part system of priesthood Melchisedec and Aaronic.

Bible Christ brought end to Aaronic priesthood and is only High Priest after the manner of Melchisedec. (Hebrew chapters 5-9 2 Timothy 2:2

I like this topic practically they are saying:"we do not have the priesthood!"

The Bible clearly mention 2 different priesthoods Aaronic and Melchisedec, Melchisedec was before of Aaron and the was an order or manner, so at least Jesus is not the ONLY ONE, because Melchisedec and his manner were before than Him.

To have a better understanding of this please read. http://www.bibleman.net/priesthood.htm

http://www.bibleman.net/The_Priesthood.htm and you will be amazed about the priesthood of the believers that is not found in the Bible but still is what they proclaim to have.

11) Baptism.

lds must be performed by the lds priesthood

Bible emphasis is on believer not priesthood authority Mark 16:15-16

Yea right so Jesus went to John the Baptist just because was His cousin, all the other believers went to John just because they like the wilderness.

Peter 2:5
5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood

1 Peter 2:9
9 But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood,

Acts 9:10
10 ¶ And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I [am here], Lord.

Acts 9:11
11 And the Lord [said] unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for [one] called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth,

Acts 9:12
12 And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting [his] hand on him, that he might receive his sight.

Acts 9:18
18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.

the authority's problem was raised from the Jews several times and Jesus never denied the need for authority

John 1:25
25 And they asked him, and said unto him, Why baptizest thou then, if thou be not that Christ, nor Elias, neither that prophet?

just some good references.

Hebrwes 5:4-10

Ephesians 4:11

Matthew 16:15-19 and so on....

12) sons of God

lds We are little spirit children of God

Bible we become child of God at conversion (John 1:120

I have the words of Jesus Himself for this

John 20:17
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father;

well at the pre existence problem I have already answered to this but there is a very good explanation by Paul

Acts 17:23-29 here Paul is speaking to the Greeks no to believers and his declaration is sharp
For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.

Acts 17:24
24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;

Acts 17:25
25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;

Acts 17:26
26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;

Acts 17:27
27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

Acts 17:28
28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

Acts 17:29
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

Sorry but I guess this is final in the topic.

15) Heaven

lds divided in three kingdoms

Bible only mention two conditions everlasting punishment or life eternal.

Sorry but I can't help but laugh, it is enough to quote Jesus Himself on this topic

John 14:2-4
In my Father's house are many mansions: if [it were] not [so], I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
(here the Lord saying :" if [it were] not [so], I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you." Is making sure that people should understand His point. Btw    The Father's house should be The Heaven, or not?

anyway just to add something to make this topic more easy take a look at this:" http://www.bibleman.net/kingdom.htm

18) Godhead

lds Father God is a resurrected man with physical body, Christ is a separate resurrected man with physical body, Holy Ghost is a separate man with a spiritual body three totally separate Gods.

Bible God is not a man Numbers 23:19 only one God Isaiah 43:10-11  44:6 45:21-22 Father is spirit and invisible John 4:24 1 Timothy 1:17

I love this topic let' start from the scriptures mentioned by Sandra she gives us just one scripture to prove that God is not a man

Numbers 23:19
19 God [is] not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent:

clearly the key is that God is not like a man because He doesn't need to repent, because He is perfect not because God the Father has not the shape of a man, prophets described Him many times, His face, His hair, His beard, His feet. Anyway even I want to give Sandra her point she would need another one to make two witnesses as the Bible teaches. I will start to number the hundreds of reference, clear and sharp, in the Bible referring to God as a Man. Jesus loved to name Himself Son of Man, do you know who His Father was?  take a deep breath and read this http://www.bibleman.net/God_is_spirit.htm

Let's go to the second point God is one lucky here Sandra gave us 3 scriptures. If don't make mistakes her opinion is that God is not separated, but three different people are always the same one, in the same place, same will, same knowledge and so on. http://www.bibleman.net/trini.htm these are the current opinions on trinity. This is supposed to be the only real verse on trinity, but remember just one is not enough http://www.bibleman.net/johannine.htm and these are the biblical proofs that The son, the father and the Holy Ghost are clearly separate persons even before and after the resurrection http://www.bibleman.net/Trinity.htm http://www.bibleman.net/The_trinity.htm

While Jesus was on earth His father was in heaven

Matthew 5:48
48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

at His baptism

Matthew 3:16
16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

Matthew 3:17
17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Matthew 5:45
45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven

The Father is the God of Jesus too, according to His words

John 20:17
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God.

remember that Protestant are using this (see Sandra I am trying to help you!)

John 14:11
11 Believe me that I [am] in the Father, and the Father in me:

but Jesus was clearly talking about unity in purpose in fact

John 14:20
20 At that day ye shall know that I [am] in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

in fact He remarked the same concept in

John 17:11
11 ¶ And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we [are].

after the resurrection we have His words about the separateness

John 20:17
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father:

and the word of Stephan

Acts 7:55
55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

and the word of John

Revelation 5:1
1 ¶ AND I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.

Clearly God the father or who else? and then see what happens  at verse 5

Revelation 5:5
5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

Revelation 5:6
6 ¶ And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

Revelation 5:7
7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.

well I do not need to add nothing more, because here God the father is sitting on a throne having a book in His Hand.

20) Virgin birth

lds believe God, as a resurrected physical man, is a literal Father of Jesus, same manner in man are conceived on earth

Bible says Matthew 1:18

Fortunately I spent some time on this idea and I have to articles to give you.

http://www.bibleman.net/fatherhood_of_jesus.htm

http://www.bibleman.net/Family.htm

after the pages of Sandra Tanner there are others in which the writers define our doctrines by themselves after they use our scriptures to show that our doctrine is different and at the end they use the Bible.

They have one problem here, they define Mormon doctrine taking statements of our leaders out of context, but I don't want to use this as an excuse, just to point out that our doctrine is in THE SCRIPTURES and that our leaders can publish book or give their opinion on doctrine but the real doctrine is contained in the scriptures accepted by vote from the whole church. there are many statement given from our leaders that are the same as this one

1 Corinthians 7:25
25 ¶ Now concerning virgins I have no commandment of the Lord: yet I give my judgment,

so for this reason I leave aside the statements of my leaders because until a teaching is not support by the whole church is not a doctrine in the church, but I am very happy to discuss the problem raised from those loving guys by the scriptures.

first point is that some scriptures D&C 20:19,28 2 Nephi 31:21 3 Nephi 11:36 seem to indicate ONE GOD

we have already shown that the Bible is against this idea so I have to explain why those scriptures seem to contradict this point, simple and clear like I wrote they are referring to the unity in purpose no more no less, even the Bible has few scriptures in the same way.

At page nine they declare that God is unchanging, while we believe that man can become God and God was once a man and they quote Isaiah 43:10-11 and John 1:1.14 Malachi 3:6 Hebrews 13:8 Hebrews 1:12

I'd say that most of them are out of context, especially Hebrews 13:8 John 1:1, 14

Because they are a clear proof that Jesus Himself let's say was God in the beginning but He changed because he was made flesh and after again was resurrected so at least changed 3 times. but the problem is always that they don't understand the very nature of mankind:real offspring of God and Jesus remarked this point in a sure way.

John 10:34
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

John 10:35
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

This is the only place in which Jesus used this expression "and the scripture cannot be broken" because He wanted make sure His point man as His offspring as the right to be named as Him even Jesus said John 14:28

I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

also showing that is Father was in another place (good point Massimo!)

John 17:3
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. see Jesus is saying that there is only true God, because this is the point that even Paul was saying

1 Corinthians 8:5
5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)

1 Corinthians 8:6
6 But to us [there is but] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him.

There are also many references in the Bible to a plurality of Gods. Note that these references are not speaking of heathen deities, nor of pagan gods. These are speaking of divine personages who dwell on high. Though they are not God of this earth, their existence is clearly and reputably acknowledged in the Bible, and they are alluded to with respect by inspired biblical authors.

Exodus 15:11

Exodus 18:11

Deuteronomy 10:17

Psalm 97:9

Psalm 135:5

Psalm 138:1

The Father is the God of gods because He has many sons who bear His exalted title for this reason is called the Most High God

Genesis 14:18-20,22

Numbers 24:16

Daniel 11:36

Even Paul declared the same teaching in 1 Corinthians 8:5

And remember that Paul declared too that there are families in heaven by which the earthly family is named after Helohim Ephesians 3:14-15

These verses and many more in the Bible, clearly indicate that the biblical prophets and writers knew and taught that there are many Gods and these verses are not speaking of false gods, pagan deities

If Jesus is the firstborn in the spirit according to the Bible Colossians 1:15

Revelation 3:14

clearly it means that God had more sons because when the Bible is referring to Jesus in the flesh is speaking about the only begotten son, instead of Firstborn and it is interesting that people baptized are numbered in the church of the firstborn and they will gain the same inheritance that Jesus had.

I John 3:2

Romans 8:16-17

Romans 8:29

1 Corinthians 15:49

Philippians 3:21

From the book "New light upon old tradition" by Lucille De Merschman page 51

"Are we not in the caterpillar stage?

Each of us is likely to follow the tendency to settle down in our own little cocoon and be resigned to life as it appears to be, quite certain that what we believe and think and feel is the way it is. However, now and then something stirs within and one asks himself, "Isn't there more to life than this?" He begins to examine some of his opinions and belief and is not quite so sure that he knows all there is to know. He asks:"What is truth?" The cocoon is beginning to crack. He feels new motivations, new inspiration and inner feelings of compassion and love awakening within him. Love takes on new meaning; it is less and less selective and discriminative. he finds he can even love those whom he had formerly condemned. It is not easy to drop the cocoon. It requires courage to stand alone when others urge him back to the old ways. the same old self-will and self-interest keep wanting to hold him back. But something within him refuses to be held within old limitations and finally and it may take years, as again it may not he can be free and become a new creature in Christ consciousness. For, like the butterfly, this was his pattern and purpose from the beginning, that he should be a child of God, made in His image and likeness. It has been thought that this Christ awareness, the soul awakening, would come only after death, but"NOW are we sons of God, and it does not yet appear what we shall be, but we know that when He does appear we shall BE LIKE HIM for we shall see Him as He is." 1 John 3:2

Romans 8:19
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

Galatians 4:6
6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

and also He declared:" The things I do ye shall do also, AND GREATER THINGS shall ye do." He claimed nothing for Himself that He did not claim for US.

and the Bible is even more clear that we will receive the same inheritance that Jesus had the book of revelation is full of these references and if Jesus is God and our brother and if we are sons' of God the Father why should we afraid to think that one day we will be like our Father and our Brother?

at page 12 they say that we do not believe that Jesus blood will be sufficient for the sins of the world, while they say that the Bible declares that the Blood of Jesus will clean us from all sin. They quote Matthew 5:21 -22 Luke 23:33-34 Romans 5:8-9 and 1 John 1:7-10

Maybe they forget this little clue

Matthew 12:31
31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy [against] the [Holy] Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

Matthew 12:32
32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the [world] to come.

Now think about this only the members of the church can receive the Holy Ghost so Jesus is here talking about a sin against the Holy Ghost can should be committed only from people who have already received the GRACE so  see how easy is to destroy their point with a simple scripture we can prove that the blood of Jesus can't cleanse the sin against the Holy Ghost NEITHER IN THE WORLD TO COME and for those people Grace is just a word even they believed in Jesus. The apostles were talking often about this unforgiven sin are you aware of that? So please make correction on your page.

at page 15 there is a funny thing. Apostasy! they are saying that there was not apostasy and they quote 1 Peter 1:25 Isaiah 40:8 Matthew 24:35 Pslams 12:6-7 Psalms 18:30-31 Matthew 16:18 2 Corinthians 4:3-4

well maybe the word apostasy and falling away are not in their Bible but there are in mine so I go ahead and http://www.bibleman.net/Apostasy.htm http://www.bibleman.net/The_falling_away.htm but here I'd like to remark that if by chance they are right the Protestants have no ground and the Catholic church has the right to be in charge because if there was not the apostasy they are the oldest church, so trying to destroy the lds church they are even destroying the little base they have, no apostasy no need for Protestants no need for reformation, but unfortunately the Bible is clearly talking about the restoration of all things and there was no one missing there was no need to prophesy something like that.

Acts 3:19
19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Acts 3:20
20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:

Acts 3:21
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

clearly here is speaking about the last days.

at page 16 They say that Gospel is been declared meaning no more revelations or prophecy they quote Acts 20:27 Psalms 33:11  1 Corinthians 15:1-4 Isaiah 8:20 1 Corinthians 3:10-11 Proverbs 30:5-6

well take a look at this  http://www.bibleman.net/A_living_prophet.htm http://www.bibleman.net/The_Revelation.htm

regarding the first vision of Joseph they quote exodus 33:20 Deuteronomy 4:12 John 1:18 John 6:46 john 5:37 1 John 4:12 1 Timothy 6:16

If I should put all the verse in which many prophets saw God in vision maybe I will need several pages, like I wrote before Isaiah, Ezekiel, and others described God many times and Moses had this privilege many times according to the Bible

Numbers 12:6
6 And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, [I] the LORD will make myself known unto him in a vision, [and] will speak unto him in a dream.

Numbers 12:7
7 My servant Moses [is] not so, who [is] faithful in all mine house.

Numbers 12:8
8 With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the LORD shall he behold:

Stephan and John and many other disciples had this privilege so take a look at this and please enjoy the Bible http://www.bibleman.net/The_First_Vision.htm

at page 22 they talk about grace well we will do the same http://www.bibleman.net/Faith_and_Works.htm and best of all this one http://www.bibleman.net/What_is_the_Grace.htm

page 24 no second chance for salvation after death

they quote Proverbs 11:7 Ecclesiastes 9:10 Psalms 49:7-9 Luke 16:26-31 Hebrew 9:27

well I will quote

Isaiah 24:22
22 And they shall be gathered together, [as] prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.

Isaiah 42:6
6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;

Isaiah 42:7
7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, [and] them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.

We know that Jesus was supposed to open those gates Isaia 61:1
THE Spirit of the Lord GOD [is] upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to [them that are] bound;
Anyway there were promises in the scriptures regarding this in the old testament. Psalms 88-10
Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise [and] praise thee? Selah.
Zechariah 9:11
As for thee also, by the blood of thy covenant I have sent forth thy prisoners out of the pit wherein [is] no water.
It is interesting because this verse is declaring that at that time there was no water, or no baptism for them.
John 20:17
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father

where was Jesus during the three days?

Luke 23:43
43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

1 Peter 3:18
18 ¶ For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

1 Peter 3:19
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

1 Peter 4:6
6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

My question here is always the same are they searching the scriptures or they just play on them?

at page 25 the problem with genealogy

they quote 1 timothy 1:4 and Titus 3:12

what is really strange is the fact that the new Testament starts with the genealogy of Jesus Christ and His genealogy is given twice and the old testament end giving a great prophecy about genealogy

Malachi 4:6
6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

so we have a sequence that genealogy close the old testament and genealogy started over in the New Testament.

at page 26  Law of marriage is for life not heaven and they are right but law of marriage is for heaven because in the Lord man is not without woman and please read this because there are families in heaven it is written in Ephesians http://www.bibleman.net/Family.htm

page 28 Man should have one wife

please read this to have a better idea about what the Bible taught in the past http://www.bibleman.net/poligami.htm

page 29 the Negroes problem please read this http://www.bibleman.net/racism1.htm

at page 30 we find this:"

The manner in which the Bible (probably the writer is confused in using this word) has been carefully handled, with deep reverence, throughout the ages is worth looking into (good I agree). Men have devoted their lives to the job of preserving and transmitting the Bible (maybe the correct term would be the Old Testament). A complicated system of safeguards was devised so that no ERRORS would be made. ( for the errors please take a look here http://www.bibleman.net/illusion1.htm )

For example

1 a scroll must be written on skins from clean animals     (about the New Testament we have no idea if it was done in that way)

2 Preparation of scrolls must be by a Jew       (Luke was a gentile and he wrote Luke and Acts we have no idea if he called someone else to prepare his scroll or if he wrote it personally)

3 Scrolls fastened togheter with string from clean animals  (again we have no idea if the new Testament writers follow the same rule)

4 Every skin must contain a certain number of columns, equal through the entire codex ( again we have no such original documents for the New Testament)

5 The length of each column must not extended over less than 48 or more than 60 lines, and breadth must consist of 30 letter (same problem)

6 The whole copy must be first lined and if 3 words be written without a line, it is worthless.

7 The ink is prepared from a definite recipe, color must be black, no other color  (same problem)

8 An authentic copy must be the exemplar and transcriber ought not in the least deviate ( we do not have the manuscript but we have the evidence that many mistakes came out and many discrepancies http://www.bibleman.net/illusion1.htm )

9 No word , letter or jod must be written from memory (if this is the case the just the epistles in the New Testament and maybe revelation could follow this path because it is well proven that the synoptic Gospel were handed down by memory for several years see http://www.bibleman.net/The_Gospel_of_Mark.htm

10) Between each new parashal or section, the breadth of 9 consonants

11) Between every consonant the space of a hair or thread.

12) Between each book three lines.

13) The five books of Moses must terminate exactly with a line, the rest need not.

14) the copyist must sit in full Jewish dress, with his whole body having been washed (would be interesting to know if the writers of the Gospels, especially Luke a gentile doctor, did this.

15) Can not begin to write the name of God with a pen newly dipped in ink

at page 31 the good guys put the difference between the first edition of the Book of Mormon with the last one and they remarks the there are many changes, that is true, my question is very simple, could you check the original first copy of the Bible with the last one in force today? Or better could you check for example the king James version written several hundreds years ago with the last translation done today is it the same one? Why every twenty years there is a new translation, if the first edition was perfect why we have so many different translations?

Sometimes people answer that in every edition there are mistake of printing but that problem should stop after a while so why they continue to translate and review. They say because the language is changing and that is o.k so if that is o.k for the Bible why shouldn't be ok for the book of Mormon?

One more thing the "pretending" Christians or better the "concerned" Christian maintain that the Bible is inerrant but they are wrong like we saw the Bible is full of mistakes done by copyists or bad translation the book of Mormon from the very first title page is clear on this kind of "perfection"

And now, if there are faults they are the mistakes of men; wherefore, condemn not the things of God, that ye may be found spotless at the judgment-seat of Christ.

So the Bible is not perfect but according to the "concerned" Christians is perfect anyway, the Book of Mormon even though maintain that there are mistakes of men it should be perfect anyway. Is this fair ?

Maybe they are "Concerned" just because they are just "Confused".

Last Updated on Monday, 17 May 2010 10:04  

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